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	<title>Comments on: Can&#8217;t corral that Palomino!</title>
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	<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/</link>
	<description>Pencil Philosophy: Wooden Wisdom, Product Reviews &#38; Ephemera, etc.</description>
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		<title>By: humdog</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-372</link>
		<dc:creator>humdog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Nov 2005 01:53:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-372</guid>
		<description>humdog LOVES the Golden Bear Pencil, the Palomino B and HB, and the Forest Choice.  where can one buy the Palomino by the dozen?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>humdog LOVES the Golden Bear Pencil, the Palomino B and HB, and the Forest Choice.  where can one buy the Palomino by the dozen?</p>
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		<title>By: Pencil Revolution</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-371</link>
		<dc:creator>Pencil Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 18:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-371</guid>
		<description>Here here!  I&#039;ve gotten myself stabbed with needle-nosed pencils more times than I want to admit.  I like the Pentel P207 Anon mentioned, mostly for it&#039;s retro blue color:)  A very nice mechanical pencil that is pretty inexpensive is the Pilot G2 pencil -- same grip as the pen, and the needle retracts for safety. 
See Jane Work has such a cool selection of pencils!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here here!  I&#8217;ve gotten myself stabbed with needle-nosed pencils more times than I want to admit.  I like the Pentel P207 Anon mentioned, mostly for it&#8217;s retro blue color:)  A very nice mechanical pencil that is pretty inexpensive is the Pilot G2 pencil &#8212; same grip as the pen, and the needle retracts for safety.<br />
See Jane Work has such a cool selection of pencils!</p>
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		<title>By: Dorai</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-370</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 17:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-370</guid>
		<description>Woodchuck, do you mean something like the &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.seejanework.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=20&amp;idproduct=27&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pencil Pencil&lt;/A&gt;?  It may have been mentioned here already but I haven&#039;t figured out the internal search mechanism yet.

The thing that gives me pause about this pencil is its apparent fixed syringe-needle-like metallic sleeve, same as with the Pentel P205 that Anonymous mentioned (the .5mm is not for me, but that&#039;s easily fixed by the P207 and the P209).  Fixed sleeves are no doubt expressly preferred by many for stability during writing (and drafting, because of the way they intimately hug the straightedge or French curve), but they reduce the pencil&#039;s portability for my kind of rough-and-tumble use: Too pokey.  And too easily bent by a drop or normal-use collisions, thereby ruining the pencil forever.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Woodchuck, do you mean something like the <a HREF="http://www.seejanework.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=20&amp;idproduct=27" rel="nofollow">Pencil Pencil</a>?  It may have been mentioned here already but I haven&#8217;t figured out the internal search mechanism yet.</p>
<p>The thing that gives me pause about this pencil is its apparent fixed syringe-needle-like metallic sleeve, same as with the Pentel P205 that Anonymous mentioned (the .5mm is not for me, but that&#8217;s easily fixed by the P207 and the P209).  Fixed sleeves are no doubt expressly preferred by many for stability during writing (and drafting, because of the way they intimately hug the straightedge or French curve), but they reduce the pencil&#8217;s portability for my kind of rough-and-tumble use: Too pokey.  And too easily bent by a drop or normal-use collisions, thereby ruining the pencil forever.</p>
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		<title>By: WoodChuck</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-369</link>
		<dc:creator>WoodChuck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 07:25:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-369</guid>
		<description>I was wondering how long it would be till you found the molded graphite feather, hand, twig pencils on the Levenger site.  I just saw these in the catalog the other day, but couldn&#039;t quite bring myself to try one of these at those prices.  Good find.

Frankly, from the perspective of the manufacturer I find the whole wood cased vs. mechanical conversation here fascinating. There is much to consider that could lead to new innovation in product design features if one thinks creatively about the issues raised.  Perhaps you&#039;ll see a Palomino woodcased sharpenless pencil one day.  Though I doubt I&#039;d be offering those at anything near $0.17 apiece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering how long it would be till you found the molded graphite feather, hand, twig pencils on the Levenger site.  I just saw these in the catalog the other day, but couldn&#8217;t quite bring myself to try one of these at those prices.  Good find.</p>
<p>Frankly, from the perspective of the manufacturer I find the whole wood cased vs. mechanical conversation here fascinating. There is much to consider that could lead to new innovation in product design features if one thinks creatively about the issues raised.  Perhaps you&#8217;ll see a Palomino woodcased sharpenless pencil one day.  Though I doubt I&#8217;d be offering those at anything near $0.17 apiece.</p>
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		<title>By: Pencil Revolution</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-368</link>
		<dc:creator>Pencil Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Nov 2005 05:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-368</guid>
		<description>Indeed, we are all pencil brothers and sisters, whether we prefer mechanical, wooden, foot-long or &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.levenger.com/PAGETEMPLATES/PRODUCT/Product.asp?Params=Category=8-223%7CPageID=4717%7CLevel=2-3%7CLink=PT%7Cspecial=search%7CID=SearchClicked%7Ci=2&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;feather-shaped&lt;/A&gt; pencils. Arguing about which is best is, as &quot;Ron&quot; points out, &lt;I&gt;point&lt;/I&gt;less. So let&#039;s embrace what we share.

It is not our policy to censor comments. Comment moderation is turned on only to prevent spam and the occasional &quot;You guys are freaks! Pencils suck!&quot; messages, or anything that is really really offensive. You didn&#039;t say anything offensive or rude that would call for censorship, Dorai. It would be a sign of weakness or cowardice on the part of PR to delete views of people that are somewhat different. Besides, I think we agree much more than we disagree, since we&#039;re talking so much about two versions of the same wonderful tool. :^)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, we are all pencil brothers and sisters, whether we prefer mechanical, wooden, foot-long or <a HREF="http://www.levenger.com/PAGETEMPLATES/PRODUCT/Product.asp?Params=Category=8-223%7CPageID=4717%7CLevel=2-3%7CLink=PT%7Cspecial=search%7CID=SearchClicked%7Ci=2" rel="nofollow">feather-shaped</a> pencils. Arguing about which is best is, as &#8220;Ron&#8221; points out, <i>point</i>less. So let&#8217;s embrace what we share.</p>
<p>It is not our policy to censor comments. Comment moderation is turned on only to prevent spam and the occasional &#8220;You guys are freaks! Pencils suck!&#8221; messages, or anything that is really really offensive. You didn&#8217;t say anything offensive or rude that would call for censorship, Dorai. It would be a sign of weakness or cowardice on the part of PR to delete views of people that are somewhat different. Besides, I think we agree much more than we disagree, since we&#8217;re talking so much about two versions of the same wonderful tool. :^)</p>
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		<title>By: Dorai</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-367</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 21:07:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-367</guid>
		<description>OK.  My apologies.  I quite agree that this is a great website, and I thank PRevo for posting my comments with grace despite disagreeing with me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK.  My apologies.  I quite agree that this is a great website, and I thank PRevo for posting my comments with grace despite disagreeing with me.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-366</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 20:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-366</guid>
		<description>Dorai, it sounds like you are trying to sound helpful. But when the first mentions about what the person likes to write with are negative, it hardly comes off as well-intentioned in that kind of language. The moment you use the pencil you like you are using something inferior and are spending too much money (to paraphrase) is not a helpful way to solve the problem, especially after the suggestion of mechanical pencils. We are free to get &quot;anxious&quot; when people come onto a pencil website and tell us that we waste time and money with quality pencils, whether the intention is to be helpful or not.

Cheap Pentels are not the same thing as quality pencils. The minimum cost Pentel that approaches the relative quality of a premium wooden pencil are these:
http://www.dickblick.com/zz206/03/.

But mechanical and wood-cased pencils are apples and oranges. It&#039;s pointless to argue about which is better or who&#039;s right and who&#039;s wrong.

And it is pointless to include a final paragraph in a very condescending manner directed toward the people who bring us all this great website everyday. Insulting the authors is just rude.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dorai, it sounds like you are trying to sound helpful. But when the first mentions about what the person likes to write with are negative, it hardly comes off as well-intentioned in that kind of language. The moment you use the pencil you like you are using something inferior and are spending too much money (to paraphrase) is not a helpful way to solve the problem, especially after the suggestion of mechanical pencils. We are free to get &#8220;anxious&#8221; when people come onto a pencil website and tell us that we waste time and money with quality pencils, whether the intention is to be helpful or not.</p>
<p>Cheap Pentels are not the same thing as quality pencils. The minimum cost Pentel that approaches the relative quality of a premium wooden pencil are these:<br />
<a href="http://www.dickblick.com/zz206/03/" rel="nofollow">http://www.dickblick.com/zz206/03/</a>.</p>
<p>But mechanical and wood-cased pencils are apples and oranges. It&#8217;s pointless to argue about which is better or who&#8217;s right and who&#8217;s wrong.</p>
<p>And it is pointless to include a final paragraph in a very condescending manner directed toward the people who bring us all this great website everyday. Insulting the authors is just rude.</p>
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		<title>By: Dorai</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-365</link>
		<dc:creator>Dorai</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 17:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-365</guid>
		<description>If you *like* sharpening pencils, you are all set, I guess.  But when someone worries, like the respondent did, about the Palomino pencil point &quot;wearing out quickly&quot;, 

(a) he may not like sharpening his pencils that often; 

(b) he may find it is a distraction while writing at length;

(c) he may be worried that his precious pencil is being used up too rapidly;

(d) maybe something else.  He can elaborate.  

It is quite reasonable to offer an alternative, and to list its comparative advantages for the particular task category at hand.  Words like &quot;inferior&quot; are precise if one specifies the variables of comparison, which I did.  If that is too inflammatory for public consumption and people are feeling &quot;berated&quot;, etc, just erase me for pencil&#039;s sake.

To say that mech pencils will also be inferior when the comparison variables are different is quite patent.  You wouldn&#039;t get an argument from me.

About the $4, $5 thing.  That would be a serious barrier to entry... if it were true!  The Pentels I use don&#039;t cost $5, they don&#039;t even cost 1/10th that.  They are about 17 cents a piece (the Planetz and the Carnival models) and 37 cents a piece (the slightly wider barreled EZ#2).  No way would I have ever implied that the lead and eraser refills are going to be &quot;free&quot;.  A mech pencil is not going to be cheap compared to a 5-cent pencil or free or schwag pencil, but it certainly compares very handsomely with a &quot;quality&quot; wood pencil in terms of cost.  And when I compare cost, I am only bringing up one variable of comparison.  It need not be the overriding variable of course (within limits).

For writing extended prose, the lead grades available for mechs hit the sweet spot.  9H, which is admittedly not available for mechs, is an impossibly inappropriate (I hope that was not too judgmental) grade for extended text writing.  Way, *way* too hard -- like scratching the paper with a pin.  Again this is not to suggest that 9H is an inferior grade when it comes to something else, like drafting.  Yes, I have drafted with hard pencils too.  (I own leadholders too, and I like them fine, but they also suffer from point wear too much for extended writing.)

I don&#039;t at all doubt that wood pencils have enough graphite for many kilofeet of writing.  Same as the pieces of blacking in my fireplace.  But are they convenient, with the frequent sharpenings needed?  I am sure they are for you -- I can quite believe the sharpening process and the smells released help in the creative process for you.  They do so for me too, for tasks that do not involve extended writing.  

But please don&#039;t get so anxious when a person worries that the point is wearing out too fast and gets a perfectly appropriate answer.  Your right to enjoy sharpening your pencils has not been abrogated.  You have not been &quot;told what to do&quot;.  I couldn&#039;t possibly have that kind of power over you or the legions of pencil users, for heaven&#039;s sake!  Rest easy: No one&#039;s character is being impugned, and no *Geist* has been violated.  There is no danger that anyone&#039;s wood pencils are going to taken away.  (They&#039;d have to take mine too, and only from my cold, dead fingers. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you *like* sharpening pencils, you are all set, I guess.  But when someone worries, like the respondent did, about the Palomino pencil point &#8220;wearing out quickly&#8221;, </p>
<p>(a) he may not like sharpening his pencils that often; </p>
<p>(b) he may find it is a distraction while writing at length;</p>
<p>(c) he may be worried that his precious pencil is being used up too rapidly;</p>
<p>(d) maybe something else.  He can elaborate.  </p>
<p>It is quite reasonable to offer an alternative, and to list its comparative advantages for the particular task category at hand.  Words like &#8220;inferior&#8221; are precise if one specifies the variables of comparison, which I did.  If that is too inflammatory for public consumption and people are feeling &#8220;berated&#8221;, etc, just erase me for pencil&#8217;s sake.</p>
<p>To say that mech pencils will also be inferior when the comparison variables are different is quite patent.  You wouldn&#8217;t get an argument from me.</p>
<p>About the $4, $5 thing.  That would be a serious barrier to entry&#8230; if it were true!  The Pentels I use don&#8217;t cost $5, they don&#8217;t even cost 1/10th that.  They are about 17 cents a piece (the Planetz and the Carnival models) and 37 cents a piece (the slightly wider barreled EZ#2).  No way would I have ever implied that the lead and eraser refills are going to be &#8220;free&#8221;.  A mech pencil is not going to be cheap compared to a 5-cent pencil or free or schwag pencil, but it certainly compares very handsomely with a &#8220;quality&#8221; wood pencil in terms of cost.  And when I compare cost, I am only bringing up one variable of comparison.  It need not be the overriding variable of course (within limits).</p>
<p>For writing extended prose, the lead grades available for mechs hit the sweet spot.  9H, which is admittedly not available for mechs, is an impossibly inappropriate (I hope that was not too judgmental) grade for extended text writing.  Way, *way* too hard &#8212; like scratching the paper with a pin.  Again this is not to suggest that 9H is an inferior grade when it comes to something else, like drafting.  Yes, I have drafted with hard pencils too.  (I own leadholders too, and I like them fine, but they also suffer from point wear too much for extended writing.)</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t at all doubt that wood pencils have enough graphite for many kilofeet of writing.  Same as the pieces of blacking in my fireplace.  But are they convenient, with the frequent sharpenings needed?  I am sure they are for you &#8212; I can quite believe the sharpening process and the smells released help in the creative process for you.  They do so for me too, for tasks that do not involve extended writing.  </p>
<p>But please don&#8217;t get so anxious when a person worries that the point is wearing out too fast and gets a perfectly appropriate answer.  Your right to enjoy sharpening your pencils has not been abrogated.  You have not been &#8220;told what to do&#8221;.  I couldn&#8217;t possibly have that kind of power over you or the legions of pencil users, for heaven&#8217;s sake!  Rest easy: No one&#8217;s character is being impugned, and no *Geist* has been violated.  There is no danger that anyone&#8217;s wood pencils are going to taken away.  (They&#8217;d have to take mine too, and only from my cold, dead fingers. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: frank c.</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-364</link>
		<dc:creator>frank c.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 01:28:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-364</guid>
		<description>In addition to pencils, I also write with fountain pens. Given the &quot;hassles&#039; in maintaining FPs (need to fill them, clean them, inky fingers) one can argue that they are an &quot;inferior&quot; tool because of all the work. But like the wooden pencil, it misses the point. If all we are concerned about is convenience, we may (not all the time, but often enough) miss out on a quality experience. Such is the case with both wooden pencils and fountain pens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In addition to pencils, I also write with fountain pens. Given the &#8220;hassles&#8217; in maintaining FPs (need to fill them, clean them, inky fingers) one can argue that they are an &#8220;inferior&#8221; tool because of all the work. But like the wooden pencil, it misses the point. If all we are concerned about is convenience, we may (not all the time, but often enough) miss out on a quality experience. Such is the case with both wooden pencils and fountain pens.</p>
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		<title>By: Pencil Revolution</title>
		<link>http://www.pencilrevolution.com/2005/11/cant-corral-that-palomino/#comment-363</link>
		<dc:creator>Pencil Revolution</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Nov 2005 00:18:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.pencilrevolution.com/?p=78#comment-363</guid>
		<description>The pencils Petroski writes about that pre-date wood-cased ones were crude lead-holders, not exactly mechanical pencils &lt;I&gt;per se&lt;/I&gt;. Wood-cased pencils pre-date truly mechanical ones by hundreds of years.  The ones Petroski is talking about are actually closer to a wooden pencil than a mechanical pencil, since there is no &lt;I&gt;mechanism&lt;/I&gt; involved.  Not that this matters.  Brushes pre-date both, but I can&#039;t imagine that someone would take notes with a brush.

As far as length of writing, wood-cased pencils can write as long as one wants to, since wood pencils can be made to hardnesses that the polymer-based leads in mechanical pencils cannot.  So strictly speaking, a mechanical pencil cannot write longer than a hard pencil all the time.  A mechanical pencil will not necessarily write longer than a 9H German pencil will.  

And if it does, that does not mean that we are wrong in liking wooden pencils or that they are &quot;inferior.&quot;  Some of us like to sharpen our pencils.  That&#039;s our prerogative, just like using pens and mechanical pencils (or manual typewriters, computers, bulldozers or spray paint) is everyone else&#039;s.  

Besides, plenty of Comrades harbor affection for mechanical pencils.  Mechanical pencils are very fine for whoever likes to use them, just like pens are, and &lt;B&gt;we make no claims about what people should write or draw with.&lt;/B&gt;  

This should not be an argument about which is better.  A person who uses cheap Bic pens could claim that wooden &lt;I&gt;and&lt;/I&gt; mechanical pencil users waste their time with &quot;an inferior tool and spending too much money doing it.&quot;  The fact is that telling someone that what they use is inferior is presumptuous at best, and this is not the place for it -- but, rather, in a spirit completely against the &lt;I&gt;Geist&lt;/I&gt; of this community.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The pencils Petroski writes about that pre-date wood-cased ones were crude lead-holders, not exactly mechanical pencils <i>per se</i>. Wood-cased pencils pre-date truly mechanical ones by hundreds of years.  The ones Petroski is talking about are actually closer to a wooden pencil than a mechanical pencil, since there is no <i>mechanism</i> involved.  Not that this matters.  Brushes pre-date both, but I can&#8217;t imagine that someone would take notes with a brush.</p>
<p>As far as length of writing, wood-cased pencils can write as long as one wants to, since wood pencils can be made to hardnesses that the polymer-based leads in mechanical pencils cannot.  So strictly speaking, a mechanical pencil cannot write longer than a hard pencil all the time.  A mechanical pencil will not necessarily write longer than a 9H German pencil will.  </p>
<p>And if it does, that does not mean that we are wrong in liking wooden pencils or that they are &#8220;inferior.&#8221;  Some of us like to sharpen our pencils.  That&#8217;s our prerogative, just like using pens and mechanical pencils (or manual typewriters, computers, bulldozers or spray paint) is everyone else&#8217;s.  </p>
<p>Besides, plenty of Comrades harbor affection for mechanical pencils.  Mechanical pencils are very fine for whoever likes to use them, just like pens are, and <b>we make no claims about what people should write or draw with.</b>  </p>
<p>This should not be an argument about which is better.  A person who uses cheap Bic pens could claim that wooden <i>and</i> mechanical pencil users waste their time with &#8220;an inferior tool and spending too much money doing it.&#8221;  The fact is that telling someone that what they use is inferior is presumptuous at best, and this is not the place for it &#8212; but, rather, in a spirit completely against the <i>Geist</i> of this community.</p>
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